r/hockey 12d ago

[Lavalette] Hamilton: “We lost to a team $18 million over the cap."

https://twitter.com/corylav/status/1402999919145717760
8k Upvotes

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u/Denning76 Sheffield Steelers - EIHL 12d ago

Tampa Bay is dodging league financial rules like they're the Yakuza.

1k

u/Benedict-Awesome TBL - NHL 12d ago

JBB number one surgeon in Japan. Steady hand.

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u/jetpack_operation BOS - NHL 12d ago

But mistake! NHL cap die.

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u/adam3vergreen CBJ - NHL 12d ago

Yakuza very mad

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u/Mister_Cookiepants TBL - NHL 12d ago

My big secret: JBB kill NHL cap on purpose. JBB good surgeon.

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u/Bigmayer 12d ago

The best! 👍🏼👍🏼

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u/casualhobos VAN - NHL 12d ago

It is true what they say, you can't leave the Yakuza once you have joined them.

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u/Denning76 Sheffield Steelers - EIHL 12d ago

I'm pretty certain that was Hotel California.

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u/KeisterApartments PIT - NHL 12d ago

I've had a rough night and I hate the fuckin Eagles, man

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u/BenBishopsButt TBL - NHL 12d ago

GET YA OWN CAB!

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u/HastyEthnocentrism CAR - NHL 12d ago

Stay outta Malibu, deadbeat!

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u/Buhhwheat NYI - NHL 12d ago

Listen to me: they make anybody and everybody over there. And the way that they do it, it's all fucked up. Guys don't get their finger pricked, there's no sword and gun on the table. Five fuckin' families and we got this other pygmy thing over in Jersey.

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u/SnowbackMcGee TOR - NHL 12d ago

Remember the old joke when Phil Esposito got Japanese investors to secure the franchise? "Hockey?!? We thought you said SAKE!"

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u/PopularArgument 12d ago

Still probably one of the strangest NHL anecdotes is how the Lightning franchise was saved by a "group of Japanese businessmen", who honestly could very well have been Yakuza.

For all the crap people give Bettman, the NHL truly was a fairly bush league organization up until the early 2000s with weird shit like the above happening regularly.

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u/IronSeagull NJD - NHL 12d ago

the NHL truly was a fairly bush league organization up until the early 2000s with weird shit like the above happening regularly

And John Spano nearly getting away with buying the Islanders in 1996.

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u/ATWiggin NYR - NHL 12d ago

The 30 for 30 on this was amazing. Dude worth less than a million dollars tries to buy the Islanders for $165 million and no one bothered to check if he had the money.

What a shit show.

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u/AlesiaAlisanos DET - NHL 12d ago

i don’t remember the details but wasn’t he lying to multiple banks and playing them off of each other to try to get enough money? i thought he was relatively close to securing enough loans to close the sale and that’s when he got caught cos one of the banks realized something was wrong.

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u/ATWiggin NYR - NHL 12d ago

Yep. And not a single one of these organizations, including the NHL or the Islanders franchise decided to check a thing until the process was well under way.

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u/AlesiaAlisanos DET - NHL 12d ago

i need to rewatch that 30 for 30, what a crazy story. Correct me of I’m wrong but he ended up going to prison for his troubles right?

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u/wtfiwon 12d ago

Yes, he went to jail for wire, bank, and mail fraud. According to Wikipedia after he got out, he committed fraud again and went back to jail.

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u/PerpetuallyPleasing 12d ago

I thought it wasn't even a rumor, I thought the Yakuza straight up took credit lol

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u/jclinares MTL - NHL 12d ago

For any new fans, the NHL used to be the weird sports league where the owners would go to prison a lot more often than the athletes xD

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u/Beavis1414 12d ago

Remember when that guy pretended to be rich and bought the Islanders without any money? That shits not happening in any other league.

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u/Anklebender91 NYI - NHL 12d ago

I lived through that. He had everyone fooled. Plus he almost pulled it off because he was trying to float money.

Sadly he is one of the best owners in the team's history just because he was able to negotiate a hell of a cable deal for the team.

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u/Im_cool_i_swear MTL - NHL 12d ago

What a legend lol

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u/Cheap_Turnover1717 OTT - NHL 12d ago

Honestly, I respect it

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u/InfiniteRadness 12d ago

30 for 30 did a great piece on that whole fiasco. I was only in my early teens and not really into hockey or sports in general when it happened so it was mindblowing to learn about. I live on the island, too (but not an Islander fan), so it was doubly interesting/amusing to me.

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u/I_Have_Nuclear_Arms ANA - NHL 12d ago

Who's your team then?

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u/InfiniteRadness 12d ago

Rangers, got hooked when living with roommates in maybe... 2005? I forget the year but Lundquist was very new to the team I think, and they were in the playoffs (against Buffalo maybe? Again can't remember exactly), and since playoff hockey is insane I started watching with my roommate and that was that, haven't stopped since.

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u/SocialWinker MIN - NHL 12d ago

Playoff hockey is a hell of a drug, ain’t it?

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u/InfiniteRadness 12d ago

Certainly is. For a while I actually would and did watch any and every series, regardless of the teams involved, because it's so awesome. I don't have the amount of free time now as I once did, so unfortunately now I pretty much bow out once my team's season is done, regardless of the sport since I'm into all four of the major ones nowadays.

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u/Evening_Pale 12d ago

There was some con artist in the mid 90's who tried to buy the Oilers. Local media giants like Brian Hall actually protected him in the beginning.

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u/hellerhigwhat 12d ago

That actually happened in formula 1 too. Maybe even twice? Once for sure though.

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u/ElusiveSnowman MIN - NHL 12d ago

Heck, it happened with Haas and their Rich Energy sponsor. The sponsor lied about having money when they didn't and then continued to lie as the checks bounced.

Force India's owner went to jail over being a crook.

Alex Albons mom made millions selling cars she didn't have to fund her kids racing career.

F1 definitely has some sketchiness behind it's financials.

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u/hellerhigwhat 12d ago

Ok I was 100% combining the rich energy thing and the arrows Nigerian Prince thing into one event in my head so, yes, this kind of thing has happened more than once!

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u/SDFDuck WSH - NHL 12d ago

It happens in NASCAR too. Look up the DC Solar fiasco.

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u/saerbarnet 12d ago

Happens now and then in soccer

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u/qqqqq_38 NJD - NHL 12d ago

yeah but when are they signing Kazuma Kiryu

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u/WelfOnTheShelf TOR - NHL 12d ago

They're gonna draft Taro Tsujimoto

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u/Ser_Ten_Goodmen LAK - NHL 12d ago

Essence of slapshot

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u/Polymemnetic EDM - NHL 12d ago

Gooning is over, so I hope he can score.

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u/WitchySocialist VAN - NHL 12d ago edited 11d ago

Is it really being a goon if you're literally just vibing and the entire other team, bench and all, comes skating at you with the sole purpose whoopin your ass?

Edit: ass not ads

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u/ZombieTav MTL - NHL 12d ago

This is the weirdest substory yet.

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u/[deleted] 12d ago

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u/BrainTroubles ANA - NHL 12d ago

If they didn't fix it after Chicago, they won't fix it now.

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u/GhostShark SJS - NHL 12d ago

I’m honestly surprised more teams haven’t done the same thing following Chicago’s cup win

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u/BrainTroubles ANA - NHL 12d ago

Same, but also it requires a big gamble and semi-perfect storm conditions for most teams to do it. Not many teams are going to risk holding a top 6 player out for long enough to acquire the assets that would put them over if they reactivate him. Also, the cap relief only applies in the post season, so you need to make sure any moves you make that put you over don't extend to the next season. It's a tricky to maneuver to pull off.

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u/RAATL TBL - NHL 12d ago

plus the league has impartial doctors who vet the status of LTIR players so the player has to actually be injured you can't just choose to hold a player out

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u/Big_Mudd MTL - NHL 12d ago

What would happen if they signed to the cap already and then the docs assess he’s healed at some point in the regular season? Wouldn’t it result in the same thing? He just can’t play until playoffs start? Like you can’t fake the injury from the start, but once he gets healthy, if they already implemented this tactic of signing to the cap, there’s nothing the league can do right?

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u/redsoxman17 BOS - NHL 12d ago

If they weren't cap compliant, which they weren't if Kuch is healthy, they would have to waive people or forfeit games to get under the cap. You can't just sign a team for 20% over the cap and then just not play them because you are over the cap, or what would be the point of a salary cap?

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u/Big_Mudd MTL - NHL 12d ago edited 12d ago

Well I know you can’t do that without someone on LTIR to begin with. I just wasn’t sure what the interaction would be once he’s declared healthy.

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u/Xert 12d ago

Sure they can. The team could basically be published by any means the league chooses.

The team would be fined for sure. Probably lose some draft picks. And then the league could take some punitive action to make them cap compliant, but would likely first just force them to forfeit any games scheduled before they make whatever moves are necessary to become compliant.

But if a team like SJ just said "fuck it, we're happy getting a better draft position anyway, we won't fix our roster" it's not like the league would allow that either. There are broadcast and sponsorship deals the league would ensure are protected, and it's not like Bettman is going to help them out by voiding the contracts of Vlasic and Jones. The team would be immediately threatened with a catestrophic, decade-cripling fine and draft pick hit unless it fixed the cap situation within 24 hours, after which head office would intervene as a last step by declaring valuable players — i.e. contracts the player and PA would be glad to see voided — to be UFAs.

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u/foundingfather20 TBL - NHL 12d ago edited 12d ago

Yep The Lightning were in a very unique situation due to a perfect storm of factors that all came together that would make it very hard for any other team in the league to replicate:

  1. Significant cap issues going into the next season
  2. shortened off season due to Covid and playing all the way to the Finals
  3. injury that would require surgery to one of their best players
  4. shortened season plus the shortened off season didn't allow for full recovery for player to play in regular season (or at least be able to reasonably claim there wasn't enough time)
  5. the rest of the team is good enough to carry the team without "injured" player to the playoffs.

Not saying nothing should be changed to the rules but they need to be sure there are no major unintended consequences to new rules for a situation that probably won't happen again.

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u/noor1717 CGY - NHL 12d ago

Well you kinda got to have one of your stars skip the season. Pretty much every team wouldn't want that and a bunch of teams wouldn't make the playoffs with their best forward out all season.

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u/GhostShark SJS - NHL 12d ago

It wouldn’t have to be a star player if they have some extra cap space to work with. A $2-$4 million cap hit third pair defenseman could absolutely tip the scales for a playoff bound team

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u/spssky BOS - NHL 12d ago

Dmen can be healthy?

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u/GhostShark SJS - NHL 12d ago

Allegedly.

(Please EK65, please stay healthy for a full season….)

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u/RedditorForEver 12d ago

According to CapFriendly, 15 teams did go above the cap this year by using LTIR. It's pretty common, just rare for a hip surgery to a top ten player to align with the regular season. Nothing against Tampa -- I'd be pissed if my team didn't use the space provided by a surgery -- but yeah, they should fix the rule.

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u/rookie-mistake WPG - NHL 12d ago

Worth noting, a lot of those teams used LTIR for players that weren't returning though, which is slightly different.

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u/BMack037 12d ago

Including Tampa for 7.5 million of their cap overage, that cost Tampa two roster players and a 2nd round pick. Coburn has a 1.7 cap hit and Paquette has a 1.6 cap hit, and a 2nd round pick for two players that will never put on a uniform.

This stuff isn’t free. It cost an extra two picks and taking the remainder of an AHLers salary while loaning the player back, to retain 75% of Savard’s salary.

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u/blueline7677 NYR - NHL 12d ago

I mean this only happened because the short offseason for him and the short regular season. 82 game season they couldn’t do this. If they just said no cup will be awarded in 2020 he would have had surgery earlier or just not needed it and this wouldn’t have happened. They got lucky that things worked out but it’s not something you can plan for. It’s meant for teams like the Islanders who loss Lee but because of that they managed to pick up guys at the deadline

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u/CoolBeansMan9 TOR - NHL 12d ago

The Leafs did it with Riley Nash this year. Not a star player by any means but he was acquired knowing he wouldn’t play until the playoffs, healthy or not, and wouldn’t have been able to be acquired otherwise

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u/georgepana TBL - NHL 12d ago

That is what is happening. For instance, the Islanders are $7 Million over the cap because they had to LTIR a few lower tier players and, not knowing if they could come back for the playoffs, had to go out and fill those spots with extra players.

The Kucherov thing was not done this way on purpose, because no team would want their top star player to miss the entire season and with that potentially miss the playoffs altogether. Taking out Kucherov for the entire season would be like Edmonton taking out McDavid or Colorado taking out McKinnon. Teams can easily miss the playoffs, even very good teams, if you take your best playmaker and goal scorer out of the equation.

It is much simpler than that. Kucherov had a major hip surgery on December 23rd. That takes 5 to 6 months to recover from. The Lightning sped it up and hoped for the best, prayed for no setbacks in the recovery, and sped up the process, allowing Kucherov to come back for the playoffs, 4 1/2 months after the surgery. What came into play as factors was the shortened offseason and the shortened regular season. Both of these factors won't be in play in any "normal" season. Off seasons are usually about 4 months long from the last day of the Stanley Cup Finals to opening day of the regular season, for the 2 SCF teams at least (Tampa was there last year). Regular season is 7 months long, runs usually from early October to early April. A star player who has vital offseason surgery would not miss an entire ofseason of 4 months, and even if the surgery occurs at the tail end of the offseason, would not miss an entire regular season of 7 months long.

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u/Whackedjob COL - NHL 12d ago

The Leafs did exactly that this year. But they used their extra cap for Foligno and Riley Nash so it didn't really matter.

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u/ebimbib BUF - NHL 12d ago

They did it all for results in the playoffs, so their fate was already sealed.

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u/hockeyjim07 DAL - NHL 12d ago

nods in Dallas

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u/SwagNuts DET - NHL 12d ago

Difference being Chicago didn’t plan it. Kane got hurt mid season and they said “guess this works”.

Tampa straight up said “get the surgery. We know you’ll be good a month before the season ends but we’ll push it out”. In a regular length year Tampa can’t pull that off without sitting Kuch for 82 instead of 56.

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u/GhostShark SJS - NHL 12d ago

Sure, but there are endless slightly different versions of the same situation. Simply put its legal cheating (an oxymoron to be sure) and it works. If you have an injured player at any point before the trade deadline that probably won’t be ready by end of regular season, why not? Pay to win-now teams leverage future assets all the time. It’s ridiculous that now it’s post season so we have a completely different set of rules for both salary cap and also apparently just about every minor penalty.

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u/usernamedstuff VGK - NHL 12d ago

Was it just him? 18 million has to be at least two players.

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u/SwagNuts DET - NHL 12d ago

Technically they have Gaborik’s contract as well

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u/AlmostCurvy MTL - NHL 12d ago

I swear to god that number gets bigger every time I see it lol

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u/JenNettles ANA - NHL 12d ago

Same, at this point i'm still trying to figure out how Tampa got 22 million over the cap

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u/strdrrngr FLA - NHL 12d ago

IIRC Savard's contract is part of what puts them over the cap as they likely would not have been able to trade for him at the deadline if Kucherov's full ticket had been on the books at the time.

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u/Chrussell VAN - NHL 12d ago

We know you’ll be good a month before the season ends

Based on what? Got a source for the surgery having a month shorter recovery?

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u/invisibleninja7 CAR - NHL 12d ago

I mean it’s not like a GM can waltz down to Injured Superstar Depot and pick one up

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u/DGGuitars NYI - NHL 12d ago

If you want to play a guy who is on LTIR but comes back you should have to pick and choose players for sure. I had a Tampa fan fire back saying " well Isles are over " yeah Its Palmieri replacing Lee who is VERY much so out and wont be playing.

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u/theguyishere16 Hamilton Bulldogs - OHL 12d ago edited 12d ago

The easiest solution is forcing teams to ice cap compliant rosters in the playoffs.

To expand on this, I just mean the team on the ice should be constrained to the salary cap. Allow players to come in and out without restriction but the team on the ice shouldbe forced to have a total cap hit <= $81.5 million. The roster on the ice that eliminated Carolina yesterday was just a league average player away from being over $90 million in cap dollars (~$89.3 million).

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u/pilot1nspector 12d ago

Agreed. I don't even understand why the cap just magically disappears at play off time. I think it is fine to have exceptions if a big money player is injured but just like in Kucherov's case, why the hell is he aloud to come back in the play offs when he was ineligible for the regular season and they had good players to fill out the roster. Tampa fans all say "Well it's legal so who cares, you wouldn't think it was bad if it was your team," the Luongo contract was legal at the time too and look how that worked out for a team that the NHL isn't worried to punish because of a fanbase that will still be there regardless. If Vancouver was 18 mill over the cap I doubt I would just pretend it was totally in good faith. My opinion would be yeah it's great but it is clearly BS.

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u/Datalust5 MIN - NHL 12d ago

The funny thing about “you wouldn’t think it was bad if it was your team” is that if it WAS another team, those Tampa fans that say that would be just as upset as the rest of us

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u/TheChirpLord TOR - NHL 12d ago

This is the best solution. And even has wiggle room as if you ignore the scratched players etc. It’s actually more room than the regular season, but would stop these scenarios.

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u/ProJoe ARI - NHL 12d ago

this is 100% the most reasonable resolution to the problem.

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u/poeticentropy SJS - NHL 12d ago

this is too logical and reasonable to ever be implemented by the league

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u/sirebell VGK - NHL 12d ago

Also just saying, “Well, you guys are doing it too!!” doesn’t make it right.

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u/DGGuitars NYI - NHL 12d ago

I don't blame tampa fans, Would I complain that my team is legally cheating and winning? Hell no id never complain id defend it to the end.

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u/sirebell VGK - NHL 12d ago

Oh, I get it. That’s coming from a fan of a team who did cap gymnastics all season long.

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u/ItzEnoz MTL - NHL 12d ago

I wonder if the NHL will just make the playoffs so you have to field a roster that fits the cap.

So your 12 F, 6 D, 2 G need to be under the cap

This way it doesn’t super hurt a team who has legit long term injures and you can’t literally have Kucherov out all year, load up on players and then bring him back game 1.

With this is place Tampa would likely have to sit Johnson, Savard and probably like Sergachev

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u/tm_leafer 12d ago

That seems far too easy and logical for the NHL to implement.

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u/spoke2 12d ago

Aren't loopholes an integral part of the salary cap system? /s

I heard once Chris Pronger was being paid like 8 years after he quit playing as a cap avoidance scheme.

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u/Cloudeur PIT - NHL 12d ago

You mean Coyotes Legend Chris Pronger ? Who was traded there to help them reach cap floor and alleviate the Flyers in their ceiling?

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u/pumaturtle PIT - NHL 12d ago

Crazy the Yotes never made any noise with Yotes Legend Chris Pronger and Yotes Legend Pavel Datsyuk on the roster

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u/CarRamRob MTL - NHL 12d ago

And Hossa. What a team

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u/RebeccaNobody NYI - NHL 12d ago

You mean Coyotes Legend Chris Pronger ? Who was traded there to help them reach cap floor

Just like Islanders legend Tim Thomas!

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u/Perfect600 TOR - NHL 12d ago

wasnt he a league employee at the same time? Shit was wack.

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u/lumieres-de-vie MTL - NHL 12d ago

Pretty sure he also got inducted into the Hall of Fame while still having an active player contract.

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u/Perfect600 TOR - NHL 12d ago

lmaoooo even better.

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u/DGGuitars NYI - NHL 12d ago

Id imagine there are SOME ways to pay guys but id bet they are small not adding a $9.5 million dollar player like Kuch on a whim.

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u/Greedy-Sprinkles-617 12d ago

Marian Hossa hasn't played in four years and he's just coming off of the Coyotes books this season. Kessel's been traded twice since the Leafs but they're still paying part of his salary until the end of the 2022 season.

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u/ConfidentialChatter 12d ago

They closed that particular loophole in the CBA, limiting contract length to 8 years and making the lowest salary year not allowed to be less than half of the highest salary year. There are still some contracts around the predate the fix, such as Shae Weber.

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u/beaverlyknight TOR - NHL 12d ago

Honestly I'd have the rule be "you have to play 1 regular season game".

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u/MemeLordOverKill DET - NHL 12d ago

Or the cap just carries over to the playoffs

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u/0DegreesCalvin BOS - NHL 12d ago

This seems like such an obvious solution

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u/TooOldForThis5678 12d ago

Going with the obvious solution? THIS league?

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u/Greedy-Sprinkles-617 12d ago

Can't do that. If league rules are consistent from regular season through playoffs, they'll have to start calling penalties. All the penalties. /s

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u/bulldoggordon EDM - NHL 12d ago

And if you dont, you aren’t eligible to play in the playoffs.

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u/Fired_Guy1982 12d ago

I thought this was a post from r/formula1 and thought it was extremely spicy for a second

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u/1X3oZCfhKej34h CHI - NHL 12d ago

You can tell it's not F1 because nobody would be quibbling over a mere $18 million.

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u/DriveByStoning BOS - NHL 12d ago

Haas has entered the chat.

Mazes🅱️in has left the chat.

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u/ZappySnap PIT - NHL 12d ago

Hey now, Mazepin has corrected his early season spinning ways by going so slow he can't spin.

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u/casualbearsuit TBL - NHL 12d ago

18 mil gets you a driver's seat with Haas.

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u/setmehigh WSH - NHL 12d ago

Lmao, same here. Thought geez lewis is coming in hotter than his brakes with the magic on.

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u/LXA_Sarge TBL - NHL 12d ago

On a related note: OOOOOOOOOOH next season gonna be SPICY when that cap takes effect!

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u/Reddits-Reckoning 12d ago

Same. I was like what the fuck is he on about. I was so mad for a second lol

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u/casualbearsuit TBL - NHL 12d ago

Imagine Hamilton publicly complaining about RBR being over the cap, as if that would have stopped him from keeping the magic on lol

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u/skimmer419 12d ago

Dougie also said he doesn't have a problem with it. The full quote makes him sound less salty

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u/big_actually TBL - NHL 12d ago

His full quote in the article:

"We had a great season. We lost to a team that's $18 million over the cap or whatever they are. I feel like we played them pretty close... I wasn't knocking the rules or anything. You realize how many weapons they have, and if you think about how many more players you could have with the money, you realize how much deeper you'd be. That's just how it worked out. I know it's happened with teams in the past, I don't have a problem with it. You just realize how good that team was."

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u/Dr_Jackwagon DAL - NHL 12d ago

Yeeeah, I don't know...

It sounds like he's saying, "yeah, they cheated. Not a big deal. Don't have a problem with it. We played them pretty close. I mean, of course they won; they were $18 million over the cap. Not knocking the fact that they cheated. It is what it is."

I don't know if "salty" is the right word, but he's definitely aware that TB gave themselves a big advantage by skirting the rules, and he's probably not thrilled with it. Or else he wouldn't have mentioned it...

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u/Nine-Foot-Banana CGY - NHL 12d ago

I interpret his meaning to be that the focus should be on the loophole, not the teams that use it.

Mentioning other teams having done it in the past sounds like "I don't have a problem with Tampa doing it because Chicago did it, but it's not fair so it shouldn't be able to happen again"

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u/killjoy269 WPG - NHL 12d ago

Yeah but that doesn't drive clicks and outrage

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u/blahblahloveyou CAR - NHL 12d ago edited 12d ago

Yea the answer was given to the question of “What pieces does Carolina need to win a Stanley Cup.” He was basically explaining that they already have what they need. They played a team 18m over the salary cap with the best goalie in the league, and they were right there with them every game. Most of those games could have gone either way. It wasn’t really a salty comment at all.

Edit: he definitely meant it in a “that’s how good the team that beat us is” type of way.

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u/Crosscourt_splat CAR - NHL 12d ago

This. Honestly the Canes were about even with Tampa on 5v5..maybe even slight edge.

Tampa straight up dominated special teams amd goalie play though, which turned out to be a lethal combo.

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u/341629 TOR - NHL 12d ago

Spicy 🌶

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u/Redwings1023 DET - NHL 12d ago

He’s gonna get punished more for saying that than Tampa will for actually being over the cap

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u/NorseForceGaming 12d ago

That's another 250k fine for the Rangers.

It's starting to add up now.

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u/illiocostalis LAK - NHL 12d ago

Bruce Cassidy has been fined 25K for this

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u/sirebell VGK - NHL 12d ago

Joe Kelly has been suspended for 8 games.

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u/Datalust5 MIN - NHL 12d ago

And another 4 for kadri just for fun

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u/VitaminTea TOR - NHL 12d ago

Lol he isn't going to get punished for this

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u/Skeletor34 DET - NHL 12d ago

Tampa didn't break any rules, of course they won't have any punishment.

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u/ttaku VAN - NHL 12d ago

Yeah and the Luongo contract was legal when it's signed but that didn't stop the league from retroactively giving us the recapture penalty.

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u/Satans_BFF NJD - NHL 12d ago

We got picks taken away for a contract that “circumvented the spirit of the CBA”. No specific rule against it.

I’d say Tampa is circumventing the spirit of the salary cap. 🤷‍♂️

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u/WestSideBilly SJS - NHL 12d ago

Meanwhile, Hossa was still being paid this season, and Pronger was already in the HOF while Arizona was still using his contract for cap (floor) circumvention.

But sure, the Devils were the real cheaters... such bullshit.

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u/JayString VAN - NHL 12d ago

The difference is the teams involved.

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u/mikeydude00 Northeastern University - NCAA 12d ago

I think the issue most people have is that while they didn’t break any explicit rules, there is a precedent for teams being penalized for “violating the spirit of the CBA”, where despite doing something that is legal, the league punishes the team anyway for clearly trying to exploit a loophole (look up what happened with the Devils and the Kovalchuk contract if you’re not already familiar). It’s hard to argue that icing a team $18,000,000 over the cap isn’t violating the spirit of the CBA, so if the NHL wants to be consistent, Tampa deserves a punishment.

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u/specifichero101 NJD - NHL 12d ago

Just as an aside, the team they are icing isn’t 18 million over the cap. Half of that is still on ltir. They are one kucherov contract over the cap.

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u/tonytanti Vancouver Giants - WHL 12d ago

So how long until the NHL retroactively punishes all the teams that circumvented the cap with litr like they did with those back diving contracts and why does it only affect the Canucks?

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u/slowflo123 MTL - NHL 12d ago

Just wait until shea Weber retires with 1 year left on his contract

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u/tonytanti Vancouver Giants - WHL 12d ago

They already changed that part. Now the cap hit can’t be greater than the AAV

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u/slowflo123 MTL - NHL 12d ago

And who dosnt want to see 20M cap hit to the preds over 3 years?

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u/tonytanti Vancouver Giants - WHL 12d ago

Just as bad as having Ryan Johansen at $8x4?

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u/netsrak NSH - NHL 12d ago

At least it isn't Duchene for 8 as well

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u/Disappointeddonkey NSH - NHL 12d ago

Hey don’t forget a a useless turris caphit for 2 mil for the rest of time

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u/Mello2 CAR - NHL 12d ago

Carolina paid Alex Semin 2 million dollars this year lmao

The buyout is FINALLY over

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u/UncleIrohsPimpHand DET - NHL 12d ago

Bettman

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u/J_Seifert NSH - NHL 12d ago

Well… me

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u/kind-of-there VAN - NHL 12d ago

They already fixed that, annual penalty can’t exceed the AAV so it prorates until the bill is paid.

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u/Goose312 MIN - NHL 12d ago

That's still brutal at nearly 8m dead cap for 3 years plus some runoff for year 4. It'd be basically if Johansen's contract runs out, but then it continues for 3 more seasons without a player on the roster.

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u/ElJacinto NSH - NHL 12d ago

We're already paying two players $8 million to do nothing. Why not pay a third?

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u/PSChris33 TOR - NHL 12d ago

I mean, he's right.

But the owners already had plenty of time and an entire CBA to patch this up after the Hawks did this with Kane - they didn't bother. Don't blame Tampa for playing by a set of stupid rules.

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u/Sanhen 12d ago

Yep. The issue here isn’t that Tampa Bay broke any rules. The issue is that they didn’t have to. This is an NHL rules problem, not a Lightning problem.

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u/bulldoggordon EDM - NHL 12d ago

I actually think the hawks situation was different though. The hawks were cap compliant through most of the season. Kane was only out 2 months and came back for the playoffs. With kucherov out all year not once did Tampa really need to be cap compliant. I think the league should issue some kind of rule where if a player doesn’t dress at all during the regular season, they are not allowed to play in playoffs. This would force a team like Tampa to dress Kucherov for at least one game during the regular season and the team would need to be cap compliant to do so.

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u/CreepyInternetUser OTT - NHL 12d ago

But what about players like Tarasenko who were injured an entire season (surgery) and made a comeback just in time for playoffs? I feel like the easy fix is just having the salary cap matter in the playoffs just like the regular season.

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u/gr8-big-lebowski TOR - NHL 12d ago

Salary cap is only active when players get paid salaries.

But still shouldn't be too hard to ammend or fix.

A hefty luxury/playoff cap exceedance tax would likely be a part of the fix. Maybe putting cap restrictions on the following season, relative to the amount over the cap during the playoffs.

Over 18m in playoffs, you lose a percentage of that off your next seasons cap maybe?

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u/ComingUpWaters COL - NHL 12d ago

But what about players [who] made a comeback just in time for playoffs

See ->

This would force a team like Tampa to dress Kucherov for at least one game during the regular season and the team would need to be cap compliant to do so.

Tarasenko played in the regular season.

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u/[deleted] 12d ago

[deleted]

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u/ThePorkman 12d ago

Let's all just remember that a $1M AAV contract in Toronto is like $1B in Tampa because Florida has no state income tax

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u/ldeas_man TOR - NHL 12d ago

a 1st round win in Toronto is like a 4th round win in Tampa

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u/Kevin4938 TOR - NHL 12d ago edited 12d ago

Not really. Fourth round wins in Tampa happen more often.

Edit: Thanks for the gold, kind stranger!

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u/Big_Mudd MTL - NHL 12d ago

Jesus, that’s not even an exaggeration.

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u/SwagFartUnicorn TOR - NHL 12d ago

It's actually 2 billion smh my head

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u/Benedict-Awesome TBL - NHL 12d ago

Why make billions when you can make...millions?

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u/Android_67 TOR - NHL 12d ago

I honestly think it's something the league needs to consider tho. I mean it does give certain teams an advantage that others can't control

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u/OldManOnCampus HC Dynamo Pardubice - ELH 12d ago

Yeah, like... if the league is concerned about parity I don't see why this is a "meme" point.

You're never going to fix players wanting to play in California, Florida, or some small US market where they wouldn't be recognized even if they scored like McDavid, but at least you can fix the fucking tax issue.

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u/ADA-17 12d ago

It’s not a meme it’s a legitimate advantage.

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u/Jayce1969 12d ago

If they wanted to fix it they could adopt rules like MLB. If your not in the roster by a certain date you don’t qualify for the postseason. This way Kucherov wouldn’t be able to play because he wasn’t on the roster at whatever date and there would be no issue of teams stashing stars on the injured list and bringing them back just for the playoffs.

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u/Comoxblock VAN - NHL 12d ago

Yet we get punished for Luongo’s contract

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u/BillyTenderness MIN - NHL 12d ago

Given what happened to us (or rather, will happen to us) with the Parise and Suter contracts I'd love for the NHL to find a way to not only fix the playoff cap loophole, but retroactively fuck over anyone who was abusing it

1k

u/SoderDrinker COL - NHL 12d ago

I don’t know why anyone is excusing this like it’s okay. The guy is completely right and it’s bull shit

1k

u/miner88 Lulea HF - SHL 12d ago

Kucherov is literally leading the league in points this playoffs. Nobody’s ever going to convince me that he wasn’t healthy enough to play a single game in the regular season.

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u/XKingslayerBSJ TOR - NHL 12d ago

He was taking practices in a full contact jersey but just conveniently wasn't 100% till game 1 of the playoffs? Like get outta here with that lol

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u/slowflo123 MTL - NHL 12d ago

Kucherov himself was saying how he couldn’t wait to be back on the ice, feeling as good as ever before game 1

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u/miner88 Lulea HF - SHL 12d ago

He also had something like 25 minutes of ice time and had 3 points. Dude was ready to go for a while to put those numbers up.

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u/Stripedanteater CAR - NHL 12d ago

Yea I’m not attacking Tampa fans, but so much shit Tampa did was bullshit. I know they weren’t technically breaking rules, but it’s like rocky vs fucking dolph lundgren juiced in Russia. Hard to play a balanced field when you got such exploitation of loopholes going on.

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u/Maxpowr9 VGK - Bandwagon 12d ago

If it doesn't change after this season, it never will.

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u/ComingUpWaters COL - NHL 12d ago

Yea I’m not attacking Tampa fans,

Why can't we all just accept when our favorite team does dumb things, it doesn't mean us fans are somehow responsible. The Tampa hockey team has an unfair advantage, has nothing to do with the fans. :/

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u/AthenaGrande Hartford Whalers - NHLR 12d ago

The Bruins have never done anything wrong and I love them.

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u/the_dawn_of_red CBJ - NHL 12d ago

Look at how the Astros fans reacted. You can't separate the fans from the organization, they are joined at the hip. For better or worse

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u/SoderDrinker COL - NHL 12d ago

That man definitely could have returned earlier. It’s fuckin cap games. The cap should be in enforced in the playoffs no question

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u/mylefthandkilledme ANA - NHL 12d ago

TBL gamed the system. The system is fucked but kudos to TBL.

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u/SoderDrinker COL - NHL 12d ago

Yep. Hate the game not the player

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u/DGGuitars NYI - NHL 12d ago

Drove me nuts when they said he was good to go game one vs Panthers. Guy was dead all season comes in scores 2 goals 1 assist.

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u/VegasKL SJS - NHL 12d ago edited 12d ago

What's funny is that even Adult Leagues have some form of minimum games played requirement to participate in the playoffs.

I'm surprised the NHL doesn't have one. Heck, they could include the AHL games in on that (for reconditioning).

Make it like that the player had to play a minimum of 10% of the season (~8 NHL or AHL games) to qualify for playoffs. If they don't make this minimum, a special roster request can be filed with the NHL where they'll review it (for cap violations like the Kuch situation, etc.).

I don't think teams will intentionally do it, but I don't think they should benefit from it either.

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u/canucks3001 VAN - NHL 12d ago

It’s tough because what’s the alternative?

If you walk it through step by step you can see why it is the way that it is.

If you got a guy who gets injured you can add players right? Get some cap relief.

So what if you add those players expecting your guy to be out for the season and he returns in time for the playoffs? You’re not allowed to leave uninjured players on the LTIR (otherwise every bad contract in the sport would end up there). So how does that team end up cap compliant? Trade deadline has passed. Waivers saves a max of sub 1 mill. Can’t buy a guy out during the regular season. Basically you would have to forfeit the rest of the games. NHL doesn’t want that cause of $$$ and it could really screw over a team that wasn’t trying to abuse it.

So what if you get no cap relief for LTIR? Well, now you have teams that spend to the cap, a guy gets injured, and they physically can’t call someone up to replace him because of cap constraints. So there’s no way to ice a full team. You get 2 or 3 injuries and the season is over.

I don’t know what the correct solution is. Probably the best bet is to be more strict with the LTIR. Constant checkups from league doctors to make sure the player really can’t play.

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u/mjb6610 PIT - NHL 12d ago

Possible solution: overall team roster is allowed to exceed the cap, but lineup that is iced has to remain below the ceiling?

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u/theclash06013 DET - NHL 12d ago

Honestly I agree 100%. There is really no good way around it and the Kucherov situation shows exactly why. Kucherov was legitimately injured, he had hip surgery. It is possible he could have played through the injury, but he was actually injured. They did schedule the surgery intentionally so he would be out for the regular season but back for the playoffs, but why wouldn't you schedule a surgery at the best possible time?

You could say too bad you need to be cap compliant during the playoffs, but then that screws teams who have stars legitimately miss the regular season. You can't just shed millions in cap space during the playoffs. You could get rid of LTIR overages, and say guys still count against the cap, but that would mean that if a team had a few guys get injured they couldn't even ice a team.

In addition ending LTIR overages would mean that players would be pressured to come back from injuries that they shouldn't. If a guy is hurt, especially in cases of head injuries or post concussive symptoms, they should not be under any pressure to return if they cannot safely do so, and they should not have their income put at risk.

LTIR is flawed, and teams do abuse it, but I don't really see another alternative.

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u/turbanator89 VAN - NHL 12d ago

I'd love to see a serious discussion about this instead of memes and jokes. I think this is a huge gap that the NHL has not addressed.

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u/DrSillyBitchez PIT - NHL 12d ago

He ain’t wrong

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u/Web_Sheriff DAL - NHL 12d ago

NHL: "He's out of line..."

Every other NHL team: "...But he's right."

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u/ISurvivedCOVID19 EDM - NHL 12d ago

Salty but not wrong

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u/theguyishere16 Hamilton Bulldogs - OHL 12d ago

This comment section will be spicy 🍿

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u/Wrath_Of_Aguirre DET - NHL 12d ago

I’m out of the loop on this. Could someone break it down for me please?

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u/L_viathan 12d ago

It seems pretty silly that you can just stock up on dudes on LTIR, and have them in your back pocket for the playoffs. I'm here for teams with owners who just don't care about money with like $30 mil in excess contracts to throw out, though I think it would be more interesting if your post-deadline cap was limited to like 10% over the regular season cap or something.

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u/sarahsayssoo CAR - NHL 12d ago

If fairness to Dougie, which I know isn’t going to break through here, this really isn’t what he said.

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u/xTarheelsUNCx CAR - NHL 12d ago

Yes there was a lot more after that quote. “I don’t have a problem with it…”

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u/redsoxman17 BOS - NHL 12d ago

Just like the Cassidy quote the other day that looks bad without context but is very reasonable with the full context and quotation. But sadly, outrage sells so this is what we get.

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u/SimpsonX DET - NHL 12d ago

Yeah that's true

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u/CB_Joe COL - NHL 12d ago

Truth. Please close this loophole already.